WATCH: Mother-in-law from Hell? What was Margaret Beaufort’s relationship with Elizabeth of York really like?

Even before the ‘White Princess’ TV series, Margaret Beaufort was remembered as the mother-in-law from Hell. But does she really deserve this reputation? Check out my thoughts on the reason why Margaret was so much at court in the early years of Henry VII’s reign. What do you think?

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Harry, Meghan and HRH

The Queen’s announcement that the Duke and Duchess of Sussex will cease using the style His/Her Royal Highness has taken many by surprise.

Recently, the folks at CNN have published a piece stating that while the couple will not use the style, the Queen has not formally revoked it. 

This is true.  However, the rest of the piece shows how little the history and the use of the style is understood.  Because the article contains errors which seem to be widespread, I wanted to take a moment to correct the inaccuracies in the piece.

This blog post is not intended as a criticism of the journalist or the people who have been sharing the piece on social media.  Royal titles are complicated and opaque.  Rules have not been followed consistently throughout history.  They largely emerge from established custom and have not been logically or systematically developed.  I have been studying them for many years and thought it might be helpful to clear a few things up.

CNN claim: it’s entirely unprecedented for a monarch to ask her own grandchild to drop their title

This is probably technically true.  However, it is not unprecedented for royal grandchildren to stop using them.

When Princess Patricia of Connaught – granddaughter of Queen Victoria – married in 1919 she stated her wish to relinquish the style of Royal Highness and the title of Princess of Great Britain and Ireland.  Her cousin, George V, issued a Royal Warrant relieving her of the title and allowing her to be styled as Lady Patricia Ramsay with precedence before Marchionesses.

CNN claim: since the early 18th century it’s been customary for the title to be issued to sons and grandsons (and later, daughters and granddaughters) of the monarch.

It is certainly true that prior to the mid-1800s the use of the style was used inconsistently.  However, I cannot find any evidence that it was given to male descendants prior to their female counterparts.

It’s probably worth pausing here to quickly review the history of ‘Royal Highness.’  The best work on this is an academic study by Ann Lyon, but you have to pay to get it.  Hopefully, my more workman-like run through will suffice.

  • From the late 1600s until 1714 the style of ‘Royal Highness’ was used sporadically but inconsistently for senior Royals.  There doesn’t seem to be any detectable pattern or method behind its use.
  • With the Hanoverian succession of 1714, the Germanic practice of children and other male-line descendants of the King being called ‘Princes’ and ‘Princesses’ was cemented.  Generally, children of the King were styled as ‘Royal Highness’ although at times this was interchangeable with ‘Highness’.
  • By the time Queen Victoria came to the throne, it was fully accepted that children of the sovereign were styled ‘Royal Highness’.  However, male-line grandchildren were styled ‘Royal Highness’ and ‘Highness’ interchangeably.
  • As Queen Victoria’s family started to expand, people decided to actually sit down and think about the use of Royal style.  In 1864, the Queen issued letters patent clarifying that all children and male-line grandchildren of the sovereign were styled ‘Royal Highness’ with the titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixing their Christian name or other titles.  These letters patent heavily imply that all other male-line descendants of a sovereign are styled as ‘Highness.’
  • When foreign Princes who were due to marry one of Queen Victoria’s daughters and reside in the UK, the Queen granted them the style of ‘Royal Highness’ if they did not already posses it.  It was also granted to her own husband, Prince Albert.
  • As a result of the ambiguity around the style of latter generations, George V had to deal with a number of requests from male-line great and great-great grandsons of British princes – now living overseas – who wanted to be clear on what their British style was.  Individual letters patent were issued to clarify that they were Princes of Great Britain and Ireland with the style of ‘Highness’.
  • Perhaps fed up with these requests, at around about the same time as he changed the name of the Royal House to Windsor, George V issued further letters patent to further clarify the Royal style.  The use of Royal Highness was extended slightly to cover the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales and the style of ‘Highness’ was effectively discontinued.  This meant that male-line descendants of a sovereign would cease to use the title Prince / Princess after two generations.
  • Ahead of the birth of Prince George, the Queen further extended the style of ‘Royal Highness’ and the title of Prince/Princess to all children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

CNN: HRH is bestowed upon royal members at the discretion of the monarch at the time, but was used liberally until World War I.

This is not true.  As we have seen from the above, Queen Victoria clarified the use of HRH in 1864 and it was clearly restricted to two generations.

CNN claim: in 1917, George V restricted how many minor royals were getting the title – at a time when there was public suspicion about the German origins of the House of Windsor, speedily renamed that year from the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

Not true.  As we have seen, George V slightly expanded the use of the HRH style.  He did, however, heavily curtain the use of the Prince / Princess title and all but eliminated the style of ‘Highness’.

CNN claim: Queen Elizabeth II has loosened those guidelines, giving HRH status to a number of senior royals.

Not really.  The only extension she has made was to ensure the style went to all children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.  Without these changes, only George would have been an HRH.  The younger two would currently be known as Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor and Lord Louis Mountbatten-Windsor.  However, they would have obtained HRH upon Charles’s succession.

CNN claim: They’ve agreed to be known as Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.

Have they?  I’ve seen this a lot on social media, but I can’t find any evidence for it.

If one is the holder of a peerage than using first names with titles is highly irregular.  There are plenty of Dukes who are not Royal.  For example, the Duke and Duchess of Devonshire are known as just that.  Not Peregrine, Duke of Devonshire and Amanda, Duchess of Devonshire.

In reality, when involved in commercial work, I suspect that the couple will do what most peers do and use their title as a surname.  So, if the Duchess stars in a film, she will probably be credited as ‘Meghan Sussex.’  In the same way, the current Earl of Snowdon trades as ‘David Linley’, because prior to his father’s death his title was Viscount Linley.

The truth is, we’re not clear on how this is going to work yet.  I assume – although may be wrong – that when they do come to big Royal events, such as Charles’s coronation, they will still use HRH.

CNN claim: today, children and grandchildren of the monarch traditionally get the HRH title – though it was historically withheld from granddaughters

As explored above, I cannot find any evidence for this.  If anyone knows where this has come from, or if I have missed anything, please let me know.

CNN claim: Not everyone has accepted the offer of an HRH. Princess Anne, the Queen’s daughter, declined the title for her own children, Peter and Zara. That’s in contrast to Prince Andrew, who allowed his daughters, Beatrice and Eugenie, to carry it.

This is commonly stated but is not true.  Anne’s children were never entitled to HRH.  As you’ll see from above the title goes to children and male-line grandchildren of a sovereign.  This follows the usual pattern that a child takes their style from their father unless their mother has a hereditary title.

The only way that it could be argued that Anne ‘chose’ for her children to be untitled is that it is almost certain that her first husband – Mark Philips – was offered an Earldom upon marriage.  Had he accepted it, then Peter would be known as Viscount Something (Earls typically have two titles and the eldest son is known by the lesser in his father’s lifetime) and his sister as Lady Zara Tindall.

CNN claim: Kate and Megan were both were awarded the HRH title by the Queen after they married Princes William and Harry, respectively. But those who marry royals who aren’t as high in the line of succession may miss out. Jack Brooksbank, for instance, did not get the title when he married Eugenie, even though she is an HRH.

This is a total misunderstanding.  Under British common law, a woman becomes the feminine of everything her husband is.  So whoever HRH Prince Michael of Kent marries becomes HRH Princess Michael of Kent. 

However, women cannot communicate precedence, title or styles to their husbands, hence why Eugenie’s husband is untitled.  It has nothing to do with their place in the succession.  Hope this helps clears a few things up!

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The Duke and Duchess of Sussex – it’s in the running but not a done deal!

Credit: U.S. Marine Corps Photo by Capt. Andrew Bolla

A few years ago – before I even knew the name ‘Meghan Markle’ – I penned a post exploring what titles any future wife of Prince Harry and their children might possess.  By some margin, it’s had more hits than anything else I’ve ever written.

In the post, I stated my hunch – and it really was just a hunch – that upon marriage Harry would be created ‘Duke of Sussex’, a title he is rumoured to desire.

Perhaps I have more influence than I think.  When the joyous news of the couple’s engagement was released, some media outlets were reporting as near certainty that America’s Meghan Markle would be transformed into Sussex’s Duchess upon marriage.

There are a number of logical reasons for thinking this.  Most of the Dukedoms previously used for royalty are occupied and those that remain – such as Clarence – seem too tainted to touch.

But I still think that our popular media has jumped the gun.  Let’s look at the other alternatives Her Majesty is presented with:

  • A new Dukedom could be invented – By tradition, only Dukedoms that have previously been wielded by a Royal are bestowed on a Prince. But it’s only a tradition.  Perhaps a new location will be honoured.  Duke of London?  Duke of Glasgow?  All are possible.  True, Her Majesty is more traditionalist than innovator – but she broke all the ‘rules’ when she made her third son Earl of Wessex.
  • Harry could become ‘Duke of York in waiting’ – the monarch’s second son – which Harry will one day be – is traditionally created Duke of York. Clearly this cannot happen while Prince Andrew lives, but it should be noted that he has no son to succeed him.  Perhaps Harry could have an Earldom bestowed upon marriage with the promise that he would one day become Duke of York when the title is vacant.  This would mirror what happened with Prince Edward who will one day assume the title of Duke of Edinburgh.
  • Harry might get no title at all – I don’t think this is likely. But as far as I know, no monarch has previously been in the position where he/she needed to give two of grandsons peerages (George V’s brother was dead by the time George was made Duke of York).  She might decide that it’s for Charles to dish out his second son’s title when he eventually gets the throne.  She was, after all, quite happy to leave two of her cousin’s wives with the clumsy sounding styles of Princess Richard of Gloucester and Princess of Michael of Kent.  Perhaps Meghan will simply be HRH Princess Henry of Wales.  Stranger things have happened…

For what it’s worth, I still think Dukedom of Sussex is going to be the one that lands.  I’ve read rumours that Harry has always wanted it (I have no idea if they’re true) and it seems that Her Majesty does take personal wishes into consideration.  But to report it as a done deal – like so much of our media has (and don’t even get me started on the American press) is just continuing the trend of lazy journalism that bombards conversation on these topics.

So much of what I discuss on this site can never be truly known.  The great thing about this subject is that it’s only a matter of months before time will tell…

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Friends, rivals, enemies? The relationship between Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth Woodville

 

With the ‘White Princess’ currently broadcasting in America it’s important to take a more balanced look at the relationship between the so called ‘Red Queen’ and ‘White Queen.’

Being UK based I haven’t actually seen the ‘White Princess’ so I’m basing any comments on the book and what American friends have reported.

Sorry about the length and quality.  Am working on my skills!

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Posted in <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/digalittledeeper/" rel="category tag">#DigALittleDeeper</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/beaufort/" rel="category tag">Beaufort</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/edward-iv/" rel="category tag">Edward IV</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/elizabeth-woodville/" rel="category tag">Elizabeth Woodville</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/henry-vii/" rel="category tag">Henry VII</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/lancaster/" rel="category tag">Lancaster</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/margaret-beaufort/" rel="category tag">Margaret Beaufort</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/plantagenet/" rel="category tag">Plantagenet</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/princes-in-the-tower/" rel="category tag">Princes in the Tower</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/richard-iii/" rel="category tag">Richard III</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/wars-of-the-roses/" rel="category tag">Wars of the Roses</a>, <a href="https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/category/york/" rel="category tag">York</a> 2 Comments

As if we weren’t excited enough…Weir teases Twitter with beautiful Boleyn book artwork

At the beginning of the year, this site listed a number of books we were most looking forward to hitting our shelves.  At the top of the list was the second installment of Alison Weir’s six novels telling the stories of Henry VIII’s curious Queens.

‘Anne Boleyn: a King’s Obsession’ will debut in book stores on May 18th.  Across social media, the best-selling author and historian has been hinting that the novel will explore new and potentially controversial theories about Anne’s relationship with Henry and her attitudes toward female advancement.    Given that Weir has previously stated that writing fiction gives the historian a greater degree of freedom when exploring thoughts and theories, anticipation is high as to what remains to be revealed.

However, for those more interested in a fresh take on one of history’s greatest love epics and the downfall of the original tragic heroine, there’s just as much reason for eager excitement.  If the new artwork and endorsements from fellow writers released last week are anything to go by, absorbing the new book is going to be a beautiful experience from start to finish.

The USA cover for the second ‘Tudor Queens’ book

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Was Margaret Beaufort’s final marriage ever more than a business arrangement?

This is the last video on Margaret Beaufort’s marriages – but NOT the last video in the Margaret Beaufort min-series.

Let me know what you think…

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How did Margaret Beaufort feel about her marriage to Henry Stafford?

We’re continuing to ask questions about Margaret’s marriages – this time to Henry Stafford.

Is it me, or do I look particularly cute in this vid 😉

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Did Margaret Beaufort ever love Edmund Tudor?

I promised you a mini-series on Margaret Beaufort.  And a mini-series on Margaret Beaufort you will get.

Here’s my mutterings on her first (proper) marriage.

What think you all?

NB: I make two mistakes in this video – one I didn’t realise until I uploaded it.  Can you spot it?

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A new video mini-series on Margaret Beaufort

Hi geeks!  Currently ‘shooting’ a new video mini-series on the mother of the Tudors. Got some great questions in that I was going to answer all at once – but the video got way, way, way too long.

So here’s the intro.  Pretty soon all the clips about Margaret and her marriages should be up.  Hope you enjoy!

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Was Henry VII the first King to ‘give peace a chance’?

King Henry VII.jpg

I’ve never been that interested in the debate around ‘when medieval England ended.’  It’s not a question that a contemporary could ever have asked and I don’t totally see the point in it.

Nonetheless I agree that saying the battle of Bosworth field was the ‘end of the medieval era’ is far too simplistic.  People would not have looked out of their windows the day after and seen a radically different world.

That said, it is clear that the Tudor dynasty ushered in a new era in the way that England was governed.  What fascinates me at the moment, is how much that may have been down (at least in part) to Henry VII’s personal style of Kingship.

I like Henry.  It’s a shame that he gets so little attention in comparison to his showy son and chaotic Yorkist predecessors.  But I genuinely believe he was a man of good character.  Part of the reason for this, is that I believe he was less blood thirsty than your typical ruler – even if he was not adverse to tyrannical tendencies.

On the fact of it, my claim seems strange.  This is, after all, a man who won the crown in battle and had to bear arms more than once to defend it.  But when we take a minute to consider the context and other facts, I do think my comments have some credibility.  For example:

  • He did not seek glory in foreign battles.  Establishing his claim to the French throne was of little interest to him in contrast to the Henrys that had gone before him and the one that would succeed him.  There is an added irony to this in that he was the grandson of a French princess and arguably had a far greater claim to that throne than he did to the one he occupied.
  • He was remarkably lenient with those who crossed him, Perkin Warbeck being the most obvious example.  This is not to say that he wasn’t a man of his times.  His eventual murder (because that’s what it was) of the vulnerable Earl of Warwick was almost unforgivable – but it seems that he did this for the sake of his dynasty rather than out of any blood lust.
  • He did not generally take part in battles himself.  You could argue this made him a coward.  But it does reinforce the argument that tales of great chivalry and conquest were of little personal interest to him.

Perhaps, after the Wars of the Roses, he thought England bored of battle.  Maybe his own experience of a life on the run had exhausted his appetite for conquest.  But whatever else can be said in critique of the miserly usurper, Henry Tudor, I would much rather live in a country with a high tax economy than one where my life was often in danger.

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